koganbot: Have Tracer, Mark, and Alan not heard Margaret Berger?

koganbot (

koganbot) wrote,
@ 2008-04-15 16:47:00

Current music:	Donna Summer "I Feel Love"
Entry tags:	a slug of time, rockism, science fiction

Have Tracer, Mark, and Alan not heard Margaret Berger?
In relation to Episode Three of the Resonance FM series A Bite Of Stars, A Slug Of Time, And Thou:

(1) Results 1 - 10 of about 1,940 for "margaret berger" "robot song". (0.04 seconds)

(2) How would you compare Mark's and Alan's accents as to class, geography, and personality?

(3) Mark mentioned that the field of science fiction has been and to some extent still is anxious about its quality in relation to supposed real literature. (Frank: And well it should be.) Two questions:

(3a) Does this anxiety manifest itself in an attempt to raise the genre (say by infusing more literary or social elements) or just to do it better? (The field of mystery stories probably suffers from a similar anxiety, but back in its great days there were some writers - G.K. Chesterton and Raymond Chandler and Rex Stout come to mind - whom I'd put into the "do it better" category in that they had writers chops but didn't think they had to monkey with the conventions they were given, so they didn't come across as adding "superior" elements [except maybe when Chandler got to The Long Goodbye, which is his most overrated novel anyway].)

(3b) Does popular and semipopular music (incl. indie and alternative and noise) feel a similar anxiety, and if so, how does it act out the anxiety? I think it's shot through with anxiety, but unlike science fiction, it doesn't have an established "real music" that's equivalent to "real literature" to compare itself to, given the abandonment by so much of the intelligentsia of "classical" and "serious" music as the measure of quality. So pop and rock can be obsessive about their search for the real, but the real always remains provisional, because you don't know where to locate it.

(Post a new comment)

	jauntyalan 2008-04-15 11:05 pm UTC (link)
	i played Robot Song on my first stint on Lollards! (Reply to this)(Thread)

	jauntyalan 2008-04-15 11:08 pm UTC (link)
	http://freakytrigger.co.uk/lollards-podcast/2007/03/freaky-trigger-and-the-lollards-of-pop-week-12/ admittedly there is no ref to the songs played on the site! also see http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/pop/2007/02/margaret-berger-pretty-scary-silver-fairy-roundup/ :-) thanks for the just in case-ness of it though! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

koganbot
2008-04-16 05:52 pm UTC (link)

When the conventional "noes, my family disapproves of the one i love" narrative hits the heartfelt anguish in the lyric "I'm in love with a robot", even though the song's title is a bit of a spoiler, and even though this is such a worn cliché in electro, you are wormed inside such patent ridiculousness. You are ready to believe her. It's in the step-up in the bridge, "You’re the only one who makes me feel a thing", a warm wash of melody that gives me goosebumps.

Excellent. OTM. It's amazing how well this song works; well, it's amazing that in a pop world full of catchy melodies that this one manages to be more catchy and aching and poignant. This would have been in my top ten singles of the year or the decade even if only it had been a single. It is the first two songs on her MySpace (albeit in inferior remixes), so perhaps it is a personal favorite.

The lyrics are based on experiences and feelings that she had in the beginning of her teenage years. It's a combination of being unsure and naive. I am fascinated and inspired by the person I was then. She was carefree and would love to go back to being that person on this album.

Carefree and unsure, huh?

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	koganbot 2008-04-16 06:17 pm UTC (link)
	Skyecaptain's analysis, if you haven't seen it. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	koganbot 2008-04-16 05:15 pm UTC (link)
	I assume it was Tracer who chose the music for last night. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	freakytigger 2008-04-16 09:16 am UTC (link)
	I'd say that at least some elements of rock and pop fandom and criticdom have now safely located "the real" in specific acts from the 1960s and early 1970s. But of course this realness is problematic because part of what made it real is its nonrealness at the time. (Reply to this)

dubdobdee
2008-04-16 10:06 am UTC (link)

yes literary "realness" is no more existentially secure than popmusicky "realness" -- though obviously the relevant institutions of self-prodction are different organised, and set against each other

i somewhat cavil with frank's argt that classical and/or jazz have been simply dropped as a measure of quality -- i think a powerful ghost of the threat of them still functions very strongly indeed (for example as firepower in the "stands the test of time" argument); what's been droped was never that much there, which was a widespread grasp in the "critical classes" of the actual modes of judgment that old-skool musicians make... someone like adorno is REALLY UNUSUAL in being deeply literate in the rules of classical harmony, and how these rules were breaking down within the composer community between the 1890s and the 1940s... but most cultural commentary which paid mind to this history of music as marking a measure of quality was no more competent to analyse the actual rules of its judgment than ppl totoally outside the game of it

(Reply to this)(Thread)

koganbot
2008-04-16 03:44 pm UTC (link)

Don't know what you mean by "existentially" secure but the question I'm asking is about how "socially" secure literary "realness" is, and the point is that when SF wants to improve, it thinks that at least it has some idea of what it would take to be more "literary"*; obviously literature is part of a larger culture that has made hierarchies of taste less secure in a lot of endeavors, and the intelligentsia has consciously (and admirably) made itself less secure but...

Music is the vanguard here, where the hierarchy takes its first, hard beating, with the high regard given Elvis, Beatles, and Brown, who were basically unlike anything that was considered high art but were also not to be conveniently lauded as folk art. Elvis was a threat to literary and art hierarchies too, in that an intelligentsia that's ready to embrace an Elvis and question a hierarchy that got away with treating him as if he didn't exist will then take the questioning to other fields. And of course you're right that classical and jazz haven't simply been dropped, and you can find various universities - maybe most of them, those that still have music departments - where "music" still means "classical" training and analysis. But what you're not getting in literature and art, that I can see, is the sense that there are a whole bunch of cultural activities that are massively different from high art and are as good as or better than high art. "Art" is still what the galleries show, and what you see at art fairs and on motel walls doesn't take its cues from somewhere else. Architecture and design may be a different story (and one for sure that I don't know), and comics may be more of a genuine challenge than I'm realizing (both to art and literature, and I haven't read Martin's post yet), but (in my ignorance?) I don't see comics as remotely having the impact (and being nearly so far from the galleries) of r&b and rock 'n' roll and reggae and disco etc. The "postmodern" ferment in art and literature isn't because there've been art or literature equivalents to Elvis and James out there as counterforces. Not sure how relevant the "actual modes of judgment" of composers actually is to our discussion. The assumption by curators and high-school English teachers of what constitutes the subject matter would be more to the point; whereas a music teacher who leaves out hip-hop and rock and disco - and most would, I assume - has taken herself out of the game, not 100% out (right, classical and jazz haven't simply been dropped, and classical and jazz themselves are sources for popular music, which isn't going to ignore (for instance) classical harmony altogether**), but way out. Where is the disco and hip-hop and rock of "art" and "literature"?

In any event, the relevant question is still, when SF wants to "improve" itself, where does it go for "quality"? And compare this to where popular music goes for "quality."

Frith and Horne's Art Into Pop might be relevant here; it's interesting that the relevant "pop" that art schools generated in the '60s was pop music - or some of its packaging, anyway - not popular art. To an extent, popular music has absorbed the high romanticism of high art. But what popular music doesn't have is a high art to aspire to, when it wants to "improve."

(Reply to this)(Parent)

koganbot
2008-04-16 03:45 pm UTC (link)

*And I'd say that even if English depts. are questioning themselves as to what constitutes the "literary," the fans of science fiction would still have a fairly conventional idea of what counts as literary (i.e., what was on the high-school and college reading lists), whereas I don't think fans of popular music - some of whom presumably are also fans of SF - have in mind a section of the musicocultural landscape that constitutes "the good music that self-improvement would take us to." Try this: "Wait, some science fiction is great art, and [science fiction writer] does well what [acknowledged literary titan] did well." As opposed to "wait, some popular music is great art, and James Brown does well what [acknowledged classical musical titan] did well." I don't know what acknowledged classical musical titan would be relevant, could fit into that spot.

**In fact, to reverse things, it's remotely possible that Mannie Fresh and Lil Jon might want to be compared to Beethoven as much as they want to be compared to James Brown (in fact, I have no idea whom they want to be compared to), but I doubt that they'd want to be compared to Beethoven instead of being compared to James Brown.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

dubdobdee
2008-04-16 04:11 pm UTC (link)

ok well i have to go catch 1xplane in an hour to fly to STRASBOURG to WATCH OPERA (wagner no less) so 0xtime at all to pick up on the many many strands of this: i think it's a giant huge massive question

when i spoke on the prog and then wrote that post this morning (abt classical music and/or jazz; abt "modes of judgment") i actually had in my head more the anxieties of musicians-as-musicians (and sfwriters-as-writers) than of fans or critics -- a craftsperson's map of "what will work" and "what will last" and "what is teh aweseom" bein sharply different from the (non-craft-capable) fan's...

(disclaimer: the relationship of craftsperson to fan in each of these different areas is almost certainly very different) (music allows for a lot more self-taughtness than eg fine or applied arts -- outside comics anyway -- which, i think, probably embeds a lot more defensive anxiety)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	koganbot 2008-04-16 05:18 pm UTC (link)
	Have a good time. When do you return? (Reply to this)(Parent)

freakytigger
2008-04-22 02:49 pm UTC (link)

With SF, is its accuracy or predictive powers a factor in its art?

So "James Brown is art because he does X well" - there is no value of X which lets us map JB onto classical music*, so we have instead to confront the version of art which might include X.

Similarly the X in "SF is art because it does X well" doesn't HAVE to be an existing literary map, it can be a new X, and if so maybe the new X is 'prescience', which when you look at the SF which DOES get valued and praised is indeed often a factor.

*(There may be values of X which let us map JB onto rhetoreticians and public speakers and actors, mayn't there?)

(Reply to this)(Parent)

(Anonymous)
2008-04-22 11:51 am UTC (link)

"and James Brown does well what [acknowledged classical musical titan] did well." I don't know what acknowledged classical musical titan would be relevant, could fit into that spot."

I would say Igor Stravinsky, who shocked audiences with his starkness of rhythm,
and his recasting of harmony (his own stylee not derived from the
serialists). However, I don't believe that Stravinsky was ever called
upon to perform on TV to calm a nation on the verge of riot. Also,
I never saw him do the splits.

(AkinCLE)

(Reply to this)(Parent)

martinskidmore
2008-04-16 11:22 am UTC (link)

SF has often taken to absorbing lessons or ideas from 'serious' literary writing - most obviously at the end of the period the radio show is covering, when the new wave of writers took a great deal from contemporary literary figures, especially the more outre ones - lots of Burroughs, for instance. There's also always been the problem of having to leave the genre for your genre works to get attention - Dick was just managing this at the end of his life, after he finally got one of his mainstream literary novels published; and after Ballard wrote Empire of the Sun, there were loads of top critics saying they had always loved his work, but he certainly didn't get a fraction of the hype for his SF novels. These days there are writers whose literary qualities far exceed the levels of praise they get outside SF circles - I don't think there are many living writers of prose as beautiful as that of M. John Harrison, for example. Then again, plenty of SF fans have no interest in someone whose writing is aspiring more to poetry than adventure or thrill power.

That last example highlights why 'doing it better' is not an easy idea to sort out - nor is it in crime fiction, where Jim Thompson did it superbly without adopting very much in the way of obvious literary values. Someone like Chandler did aspects of it very badly - his mysteries and resolutions sometimes made no sense, as in the famous case of the chauffeur's death in The Big Sleep, and this is regarded as the heart of the genre by a lot of readers - but he had lots of other qualities. Someone like James Lee Burke is a good contemporary parallel.

The place where the anxiety is most powerful, and most justified, is surely in superhero comics. Since the '60s I've seen people trying to claim that the great Kirby Marvel comics should be compared to Shakespeare and Michaelangelo, and other idiotic claims, and it goes on. A more apt attempt might be comparisons with Chandler or Fred Pohl or crime or western movies by the likes of Howard Hawks, not that many superhero comics deserve that. (I do think the comparison of the work of Kazuo Koike and Goseki Kojima to Kurosawa's samurai movies is not only justified but unavoidable, to take another example - or Gilbert Hernandez and Gabriel Garcia Marquez, moving outside genre fiction.)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

koganbot
2008-04-16 05:04 pm UTC (link)

I'm going to jump off-topic in this post and get obsessive and trivial to say that yes, The Big Sleep was in some ways a cut-and-paste and Chandler definitely had his flaws but - SPOILERS - the chauffeur confusion is not a good example, in that who killed the chauffeur does not remotely matter to the plot and only slightly to the theme of the book, and actually the book gives us two solid choices: (1) Brody swiped the photos and then killed the chauffeur, or (2) Brody swiped the photos and then the chauffeur committed suicide out of remorse for not being able to protect his beloved Carmen, or out of his realization of what Carmen was, or... who knows, and he's a minor character we never meet, and his tiny role in the novel is to reinforce that Carmen is used to people falling for her and taking care of her, which Chandler communicates very well no matter who killed the guy. The book hints at suicide as an explanation, the movie leans towards Brody, and again since Brody is shortly killed himself there's no loose end to tie up. Of course, in the book a half sentence on Marlowe's part as to why the chauffeur's death might have been suicide would have made things clearer, but again, who cares. The main question of the novel is what does Eddie Mars have on the Sternwoods, and the main issue is that nothing dissuades Marlowe from finding out (and then having to figure out what to do with his knowledge while doing his best to protect the people he cares about, which is Mrs. Regan a little and General Sternwood a lot), and the book makes this clear; whereas the movie fudges this, because its main concern isn't Marlowe's fierce and bitter and unrelenting eye but Marlowe's protection of Vivien and his redressing the murder of Harry Jones. And actually, if I'm to give an example of where Chandler technically screws up, it's in his treatment of Harry Jones. In an odd way, aided by Elisha Cook Jr.'s strong performance, Jones becomes the moral focus of the movie. I don't mind that the novel, unlike the movie, fails to really redress his murder. (They both kill his murderer, but the movie also takes out the ultimate bad guy, Eddie Mars, the man responsible for the evil machinations: in fact Marlowe compares Mars' fear at the end to little Harry's stalwartness in the face of death, Harry deciding to take his medicine rather than rat on Agnes; Marlowe to Eddie: "You look at this. What's the matter? Haven't you ever seen a gun before? What do you want me to do? Count three like they do in the movies? That's what Canino said to little Jonesy." Mars: "Now don't go crazy." Marlowe: "And Jonesy took it better than you're taking it." Whereas the novel leaves Eddie's evil power in the world pretty much intact, just gets the Sternwoods out from under it.) The novel's view and the movie's view are different, so that's fine. I might ultimately rate the movie higher, despite its obscurity and incoherence on so many plot points. But in any event, what both the novel and movie fail to make any sense of at all is why Canino kills Harry. No reason is given at all. Canino is bad. He kills people. He's a killer. So why didn't he kill Marlowe when he had the chance? Because he needed instructions from the boss, first. But then why wouldn't he have needed the boss's instructions as to what to do about Harry? And killing Harry was stupid, since without Harry alive Canino and Mars had no way of finding out what Harry knew about Mrs. Mars or whom he'd told. Again, this isn't major, but it's a better example than the chauffeur of what's slapdash about the novel, since why Canino and Mars do what they do is more important than why Brody or the chauffeur do what they do. But unlike the movie, the novel isn't obscure and incoherent on most of its plot points.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	koganbot 2008-04-16 05:10 pm UTC (link)
	Marlowe compares Mars' fear at the end to little Harry's stalwartness in the face of death Compares unfavorably, that is. (Reply to this)(Parent)

koganbot
2008-04-16 05:08 pm UTC (link)

(Where I'd point at the book's flaws would be that Carmen just isn't very interesting. She's infantile and oversexed and so what? Also, though this isn't as important, but as a character, Silver Wig as Eddie Mars' deluded but noble wife never makes sense. First her role in the plot: Mars' spreading the story that she'd run off with Sean Regan is really dumb! Yes, it makes people think that Regan is still alive, but it also unnecessarily makes his wife a point of vulnerability, since if she ever resurfaces it would make the authorities wonder, Hey, if she didn't run off with Regan then maybe someone killed Regan; let's look into this! This is an awful lot of effort and risk just to keep a tiny part of Eddie's operations (the blackmail of a rich man) going. And also, Silver Wig putting her husband at risk by helping Marlowe escape just doesn't make sense. Well, it does to the extent that it keeps her delusion alive, that Eddie isn't behind all this killing, which maybe would be interesting if she were a character we got to know. But she basically is an inexplicable bit of goodness dropped into the bad world. I thought that Farewell My Lovely did a better job of similar themes, though also it goes too soft and gushy in a way that The Big Sleep doesn't.)

What you have to say about the Kirby comics and about Fred Pohl and Kazuo Koike and Goseki Kojimo could be pretty interesting. I assume it's written down in a lot of places. Unfortunately I know only a little Pohl that I read maybe 43 years ago, and I don't know anything by the other two. And I'm pretty damn ignorant on comics, too, unfortunately.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

martinskidmore
2008-04-16 10:00 pm UTC (link)

I wasn't really suggesting that I was bothered about the chauffeur, but the fact that Chandler didn't have an explanation when asked, after a magazine story, a novel and then the movie, all featuring it, bothers those who especially value a clever mystery and its convincing, logical resolution as key criteria for good crime fiction (not important points for me at all). I think the different perspectives of different kinds of fans are really important here.

I am reminded of another comic example. I was drawn into a DC war comics discussion group some years ago by a friend. I was immediately astonished at their tastes - no time for Kanigher and Kubert, who are huge favourites of mine, but they loved Russ Heath, who I found dull and lazy in ways that mattered to me. Before long I had sorted out the reasons for this: Kanigher and Kubert were unrealistic, whereas Heath got every rivet in the right place on a tank. I couldn't care less about that, and wouldn't know anyway, but they did.

This is all about that 'doing it better' point: different groups have very different ideas about what qualifies as better, and I think genres that aren't highly regarded seem to offer us extreme examples of this, perhaps because fan groups have had to construct their own critical criteria in the absence of the more canonical paradigms - and indeed in opposition to these, since they have virtually nothing to tell us about what makes a good superhero fight scene, for instance.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

koganbot
2008-04-17 06:07 am UTC (link)

These are really good points, the different types of "doing it better." I don't get the impression that any Chandler fan or anyone else gave a damn about the chauffeur until maybe twenty-five years after the book was published, when the Chandler cult and the Bogart cult brought the movie back into circulation. And at that point it was just a funny story, that the screenwriters supposedly asked Hawks to ask Chandler who killed one of the characters and Chandler didn't know. But this wasn't something that, in my experience, people were pointing to as a flaw in the book. It was almost always brought up in context of the movie, which was had so many more crucial intelligibility problems than that one. But maybe I just wasn't talking to the right people and there are people who are really excercised by the book's refusal to explain this point. What people say about the unintelligibility of The Big Sleep seems to take on an urban legend character. I recall someone on ilX claiming that the screenwriters found the book so unintelligible that they basically made up their own story, so Faulkner brought in plot elements from Sanctuary. This is total nonsense. (Actually the first half of the movie does hew relatively close to the book, it just leaves out info on who was sleeping with whom and the nature of a bookstore (it was a front for a porno operation), who was found nude where, so you don't get any info that would explain why various people were clearing out book stock and shooting each other etc.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	dubdobdee 2008-04-16 11:35 am UTC (link)
	burroughs is a fascinating borderline figure -- never quite embraced by SF or the "official" literary canon, but never comfortably dismissed either: always there as a presence nervously adverted to meanwhile the communities that embrace him wholeheartedly seem by this act to set themselves apart from both mainstreams (Reply to this)

Mini Sitemap:

Username:		Create an Account Forgot your login? Login w/ OpenID
Password:
	Remember Me
	English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…